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Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
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OTURQ
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OTURQ,
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11/13/2011 | 10:56:33 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
There is a lot of misinformation floating around, so I will try to clarify at least some of it. I had H1B for 6 years, and now am a GC holder. For one, in order to get H1B, you need to demonstrate that there is no other qualified American that applies for the job, and that you are are making at least the average if not more then the average anyone with your qualifications make in your region. That ensures there are no jobs being taken away from any American, and that you are not cheap labor.
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/13/2011 | 6:11:54 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Forget the wage cap idea.

What is needed is a complete freeze on visas with the exception of true geniuses. If we have a true labor shortage then wages go up to encourage young Americans to enter the field.

If you have a wage cap allowing for unlimited number of immigrants then salaries will never go up

Oh wait, we have that right now with H1B, L1, B1 and a plethora of visa programs.
docroger
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docroger,
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11/13/2011 | 2:53:09 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Statistically - we are all immigrants - Myself - I am second generation American so if I start a company will it be "immigrant founded" - so that study cannot hold water. Problem is BIG Business wants profit. The real answer is that if they want to lift the cap - let them - but set a wage cap. If a DBA makes 80,000 US a year - they pay the imported labor the same - not the recruiter - the employee. This will level the playing field. Big business has no soul nor sense of responsibility, they cannot be depended on to do anything ethical - just look at the financial crisis. If we want immigrant founders - then do what other countries do with investors - bring 500,000 dollars, a business plan and proof of commitment - and we will receive you with open arms. I work overseas - when the average income is only 7,000 a year - the promise of 45,000 is a real motivator. In US terms it would be the same as offering a person making 45,000 per year - 290,000 per year. I do not know about most people - but I suspect we would lie, cheat and steal for an opportunity like that - so what do you think these people are doing (with the help of the recruiters) - this is first hand knowledge folks.
jleone940
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jleone940,
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11/12/2011 | 8:08:08 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Cheap labor is causing software to become more labor-intensive and moving away from capital-intensive. I've noticed this in several locations, and it is disturbing. It is actually a step backward in terms of value-per-man-hour. For example many startups, even big companies, prefer to use free software tools, some of which are better or rival there for-pay competition, but the majority of which are actually more labor intensive (although often produce the same result).

For example why buy an expensive ETL tool, for say 40k (and hire one programmer/IT guy to run it), when you can hire 3 programmer in India to do the same thing in java (probably at a siginificant discount, in the short-run)?

This is important, because software is already a very labor intensive field. Employers need a motivation to encourage greater productivity through automation, cheap labor is a dis-insentive for the improvement of the human condition.

Working hard is for posers, working smart and efficiently is the future (in software or any other industry).

SouthRoad
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SouthRoad,
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11/12/2011 | 8:00:09 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
"research estimates that those immigrant-founded companies generated $52 billion in revenue and employed 450,000 people in 2005".

Does this mean that the immigrant-founded companies hired 450,000 more people also on H1-B visa's and generated $52 billion in revenue to send overseas? These number mean absolutely nothing. Creating new jobs in this country and filling them with more foreigners is not the same as "creating jobs". Statistics lie, and liars make statistics.
GJAMES2302
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GJAMES2302,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/12/2011 | 1:40:26 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I knew Mr. Wadhwa back in his Seer Technologies days (mid-1990s). He was deeply involved in the whole AD/Cycle IBM debacle. He was a snake oil salesman back then and he's still one now. I'm gratified to see people finally outing him for what he is.
Ray921
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Ray921,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/12/2011 | 6:51:00 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Braya wrote: "FYI, the visa cap wasn't reached for the last 2 years because most American companies were not hiring. Unlike before, the cap is reached 24 hours after the filing deadline in April. Now, what does that tell us? "

It tells me you're a blowhard who cites as fact whatever you need to make your argument sound plausible.

FY2012 H-1B Cap Count (Updated 11/07/11) [source:AILA InfoNet Doc. No. 11040864
(posted Nov. 7, 2011)]:

"As of November 2, 2011, approximately 50,800 H-1B cap-subject petitions were receipted. Additionally, USCIS has receipted 20,000 H-1B petitions for aliens with advanced degrees. "

Thus, employers had seven months to apply for H-1B visas under the 20,000 exemption for advanced degrees for FY2012 (April 1, 2011 - October 21, 2011).

Since H-1B was created in 1990, the H-1B visa cap was reached only once on the day after the opening date of filing in April for the next fiscal year. That was FY2008, when filing opened April 2, 2007, and closed April 3, 2007. H-1B applications for FY2009 were closed at the end of the first week (April 1-7, 2008).

FY cap date for 65,000 cap date for exempt 20,000 w/ US advanced degrees

2010 21-Dec-2009 30-Oct-2009
2011 26-Jan-2011 22-Dec-2010
2012 late Dec 2011? 21-Oct-2011

hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/12/2011 | 4:28:13 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
>> Simply put, IT has no language barrier and America wants to go global but not be globalized. <<

To a limited extent, I agree with you. Why not just export IT to cheaper localities. IT for the most part just labor and if it can be done cheaper overseas then simply don't do it in the US.

>> Does anybody here have the numbers for supply and demand for IT professionals and how many Americans have formally studied for IT? I bet the supply is lower than the demand. <<

You would lose that bet as young Americans with IT degrees can't find jobs.

>> It is not the foreign IT talents that are taking the jobs away from American IT professionals, <<

Of course it is.

>> Bill Gates faking shortage? <<

He sure is.

We might have a shortage of people willing to work for minimum wage.

>> Alibis.. Whining.. Excuses.. <<

Well too bad.

Companies are not entitled to the best qualified worker in the world but only the most qualified American to do the job. If the American workforce is not good enough then a simple solution exists being doing the work overseas and simply send the product to the US.

braya
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braya,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/12/2011 | 1:47:50 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Simply put, IT has no language barrier and America wants to go global but not be globalized. Does anybody here have the numbers for supply and demand for IT professionals and how many Americans have formally studied for IT? I bet the supply is lower than the demand.

When the U.S. was playing with other people's money through American branding using cheap labor and projecting virtual profits in Wall Street, most Americans wanted to be in business, finance, banking etc. easy work, high profits. Their insatiable greed fueled the housing fiasco.

American IT professionals are just whining about unemployment but during the heydays of the American economy, majority of Americans were not complaining about offshoring/outsourcing because services were cheap and life was good.

Let's go back to the real reason how the American economy is what it is now today and how it impacted unemployment. It is not the foreign IT talents that are taking the jobs away from American IT professionals, it is character and attitude towards professionalism in the industry as a whole. With that being said, this issue is not about cheap exploitable labor from 3rd world countries replacing American IT jobs.

FYI, the visa cap wasn't reached for the last 2 years because most American companies were not hiring. Unlike before, the cap is reached 24 hours after the filing deadline in April. Now, what does that tell us? Again, that foreign IT talents with specialty occupation through H-1B is not the problem.

On the larger scheme of things, who is controlling the other end of the string? You guessed it Washington, Inc. which brings us back to lower capital, higher margins for American consumers. We whine about how crappy Asian systems/technology/code but American IT pros are not the best in the world either. I just wish I could say the same for the technology in the auto industry. Why drive a Ford when a Honda is much better in all aspects. A Toyota Corolla can outlast a Chevy Lumina. Even the Nissan Skyline is a much better muscle car. Who has crappy technology now?! So you see, it just all about the whining folks, pure and simple! ..and sadly, we are known for that in the global arena.

http://www.informationweek.com... ---> Bill Gates faking shortage? Why in the heck would he hire mediocre programmers from Asia? I would understand if he was selling Panda dolls.

http://www.informationweek.com... ---> Michael Bloomberg protecting IT capitalists? Why would this guy commit political suicide? It just doesn't make sense!

Alibis.. Whining.. Excuses..
jleone940
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jleone940,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/12/2011 | 1:06:42 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
H-1b, L-1, B-1 are non-immigrant Visas. This basically means people who take these Visa are not here (on-principal) to stay. While some U.S. companies do use these visa directly, a huge portion of these Visas are given to Offshore Outsourcing companies and Head-hunter agencies. In affect, many of the H-1b and L-1 visas used in this country are used by people whose sole purpose is to remove jobs and technology from the United States.

It is well known that companies such as InfoSys, have a U.S. engineering workforce that is 90% from India. InfoSys, uses visas, without even trying to hire locally. Microsoft on the other hand, doesn't even try, and is able to get their U.S. engineering workforce at above 50% local hire. InfoSys (and most of the other outsourcing companies, are not even trying to hire local candidates). Don't believe me, just read the now public testimony of Jay Palmer. In his testimony, Jay details how InfoSys places people at customer sites, on a B-1 visa (basically a visitor visa), in order to do work at the U.S. customer site (at 3rd world wages).

Thus avoiding U.S. payroll, medicare, and Social Security Tax. Thus avoiding having to pay minimum wage (which exceed average engineering pay in India). Thus avoid having to pay for the excellent protection and infrastructure afforded by the United States and its tax-paying citizens.

You know, each year I must attest on my taxes that what I am signing for is true, under penalty of perjury. The U.S. visa programs, are government programs, paid for at U.S. taxpayer expense. There is no reason, that just like any other welfare recipient, businesses be asked to attest that they have made a good faith effort to hire a local U.S. candidate (anyone who has the right to work in the United States, citizen or not-yet citizen). That would at least curb the addiction that these companies have to completely ridiculous and discrimanatory hiring practices.

And not considering hiring a person based upon their origin (because they happen to be U.S. citizens) IS DISCRIMINATION, pure and simple, and no way can it be allowed to continue.
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