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Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
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YMOM100
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YMOM100,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/16/2011 | 12:55:22 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Protectionism is bad, because it protects companies that are not competitive and make mediocre product, because they are guaranteed to make sales. Limiting or even eliminating competition is never a good idea. Besides that, there are plenty of products and services the US can hardly do without and that are not made here in sufficient supplies, namely oil and rare earth metals. Protectionism isn't unilateral and will always be met with retaliation, means other countries cut the US off from important supplies. How is that supposed to be better for the US economy?
The only way to compete is on quality, price, or even better on ingenuity. Same applies to the workforce. Either match the cheap labor or be so excellent that you are worth the money.
Also, right now Indian companies ARE hiring US workers, mainly expatriates, but also others who have special skills that the run of the mill engineers in India do not have. It is coined to be the 'reverse brain drain'.
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/15/2011 | 1:23:34 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
>> One day, businesses will realize that building in cheap countries and selling in America is a defective business model, especially when Americans are being put out of work. In other words, people without jobs can't buy anything! <<

I am a firm believer that Americans should start living like North Koreans. For those that are out of work then you may not have a choice. If you have a decent job that can be offshored then one needs to plan for the worse case scenario of being laid off and not being able to find another decent job.

>> The other option is to continue letting the American standard of life decline to third world status and let the people occupy all the streets. <<

That is a problem for the next quarter. The CEO is only concerned for this quarter about increasing profits by reducing labor costs. The new CEO who takes over with the reduced sales due to inability to sell the companies product due to that no one is working anymore at decent jobs in America can solve that problem.
ryancy
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ryancy,
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11/14/2011 | 9:08:19 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
It is very funny how people are always trying to cite some old study about how foreigners are creating jobs in America as opposed to taking them. It doesn't matter how much math and science Americans study, they will never be able to compete with a foreigner working for a fraction of the cost. I've been in the IT industry for over 20 years and have seen the landscape change, not necessarily for the better. Early outsourcing proponents used to say that low skill jobs would be outsourced, those people would advanced and purchase more goods and services. These purchases were supposed to translate into more jobs (back-office) in America. I haven't really noticed a change. Businesses just continued to outsource everything. One day, businesses will realize that building in cheap countries and selling in America is a defective business model, especially when Americans are being put out of work. In other words, people without jobs can't buy anything!

Now don't take my words as being against all outsourcing. I'm in the IT industry but do understand Economics. However, it has to be done fairly. America seems to have open markets for everything but other countries do not reciprocate accordingly. I won't go into the argument but basically, something has to be done to account for the difference in labor rates and quality of life differences between countries trading with each other. The other option is to continue letting the American standard of life decline to third world status and let the people occupy all the streets.
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/14/2011 | 7:50:12 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
>> He is right that neither the visa program not immigration should end. <<

Given the extremely dismal economic conditions only true geniuses should be allowed to come to the US.

>> Not many people will object to bringing in additional resources or talent on broad. <<

Simple

Go out and hire an American

If you can't find someone at the salary you are willing to pay then either raise the salary or don't do the job.

IT for the most part is just labor. If I can't find someone to flip a burger for $8 an hour then I raise the salary of the burger flipper or the burger doesn't get flipped. In the booming North Dakota oil fields Carl Junior burger flippers are paid $15 an hour.
ANON1238649796787
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ANON1238649796787,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/14/2011 | 7:32:16 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Mr. Rob Preston has underestimated the magnitude of Visa abuse. He is right that neither the visa program not immigration should end. If he were to analyze each and every outsourcing transaction, he will be aware that misuse and abuse is rampant. Not many people will object to bringing in additional resources or talent on broad. It generates a great deal of grief and anger when jobs are here in this country but the people or replaced.
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/14/2011 | 6:09:08 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
How many "best and brightest" people exist ??

My contention is that we are talking of not more than a couple of thousands individuals per year.

You really don't have that many true geniuses. No reasonable person would object to bringing in an Einstein, Pauling, Turing, Tovalds, etc. but that is not very many people.

Come on now.

Let's get real.

65,000 H1Bs + another 20,000 for MS degree holders per year under the present economic situation is ridiculous.

Another problem with people (not picking on Mr. Preston) writing "this stuff" is that in the vast majority of cases have not "been in the trench"

Those of us that have "been in the trench" have seen or experienced the H1B insourcing visa. H1Bs are brought in to learn the skills to take the jobs back to their own countries.

Or as one proponent of offshoring said in so many words :

Americans as a condition of receiving their severance proudly training their Indian H1B replacements to improve corporate profits by exporting jobs.

The above happend at BofA in 2002. BofA shut down their Concord, CA operations resulting in the Ken Flanagan suicide and the "survivors" (pun not somewhat intended) had to listen to Tata Consulting Services spiels about the benefiting of offshoring.

You need to use some common sense. The vast majority of IT can be and will be offshored. If you can get someone in the third world to do your job for 1/3 the cost then the job is going overseas. While no one wants to see American jobs going overseas, it is far preferable for work to go overseas than to bring in lower cost foreign labor to the US. In both scenarios, the American doesn't get the job.
RobPreston
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RobPreston,
User Rank: Author
11/14/2011 | 5:46:49 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Folks, thanks for the lively discussion. It has been very instructive. Just one point of clarification for those saying I'm mixing issues: My column wasn't a commentary on H-1B visas. I mentioned work visas only in the context of what a commenter said on another column, and I mentioned that if employers are abusing the H1-B visa program, then they need to be held accountable. Others (not me) have made this a discussion centered on work visas. I'm a bigger fan of (legal) immigration, of allowing the best and brightest to have a positive impact on this country. My column was NOT a treatise on the benefits of cheap labor and offshoring.
docroger
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docroger,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/14/2011 | 2:22:29 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I do understand the concepts of the H1-B - when I worked in the US I hired a few. It was not so difficult - but it seems that the real issues is how do you stop the body-shoppers. How can an Indian (for example) company in the US bring in 1000 workers and claim that the jobs cannot be provided by Americans. It is the body shoppers that are flooding the markets - not individuals. I have some "friends" that worked for body shoppers - they were billed out at 60K but the workers were paid only 30K (nice profit margin in any business). And all the expenses were paid by the individual - including the plane ticket to the US. Seems that the government is not keeping pace with the monitoring of these practices. Most companies these days will not do the H1-B themselves (the law says that the worker does not have to actually work for the employer that obtains the visa - and I know a few H1-Bs that have used this to get in the door - and never showed up at the company that processed the visa). But if a recruiting firm will do this for them - then why bother - let someone else handle the risk. Americans tend to believe that the rest of the world is like the US - it is definitely not - cultural norms are very different in the third world and these norms do not change just by coming to the US.
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/14/2011 | 3:39:27 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
>> For one, in order to get H1B, you need to demonstrate that there is no other qualified American that applies for the job, <<

No you don't.

It's perfectly legal to get an H1B to replace an American worker.

>> and that you are are making at least the average if not more then the average anyone with your qualifications make in your region. <<

Got that wrong.

You have to pay a "prevailing wage" which is lower than the typical salayr.

>> That ensures there are no jobs being taken away from any American, and that you are not cheap labor. <<

Got that wrong.
Guest
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Guest,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/14/2011 | 1:58:58 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Corrections:

All of the founders of Oracle were born in the US. Bob Miner was born in Cicero, IL. I am not sure what Bob Miner's parents have to do with the founding of Oracle.

The integrated circuit, Intel's innovation, was invented by Bob Noyce (born Iowa). Intel was founded by Gordon Moore (born SF, CA) and Noyce. They hired Grove.
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